The Philip Duff Show
Liquor, bars, cocktails: the people and companies who make them, sell them and drink them, plus everything & everyone in-between, with your host, globetrotting spirits guy and escaped bartender, Philip Duff.
The Philip Duff Show
#50, Nick Vrielink, IBA World Cocktail Championships 2023 Gold Medal Winner, bar manager Fitz's Bar (Amsterdam), Best New Cocktail Bar 2023
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The champ is here!
Dutchman Nick Vrielink is definitely on a roll: Fitz's Bar, which he set up in Amsterdam's Pillows Hotel, won Best New Cocktail Bar at the Entree (Dutch hospitality) Awards last year, and the day after the Awards Nick boarded a plane to Rome to compete on behalf of the Netherlands Bartender Club (NBC) in the International Bartenders Association (IBA) World Cocktail Championships (WCC), where he won gold in the Pre-Dinner category with his Garden of Dreams cocktail (recipe below)!
We talk about building teams, the rising cost of accommodation in Amsterdam versus what bartenders earn, why luxury hotels open with the chef already in place but not the bar manager, the first cocktail book Nick read, his goals when opening Fitz's, how he communicates with his staff, what it's like to compete at the world finals, why he's having another crack at the WCC this year, what Dutch people think of genever versus whiskey, and lots more - enjoy!
Garden of Dreams, Nick Vrielink, 2023.
20ml Grappa Nonino Moscato
20ml Campari, rapid-infused with basil & white jasmine pearls
20ml Vermouth Bianco Del Professore
5ml Montelobos mezcal
Stir with ice
Strain over fresh ice in a double old-fashioned glass.
Top with prosecco
Garnish with a basil leaf and a zalotti blossom
Nick on IG: https://www.instagram.com/nick.vr/
Fitz's Bar on IG: https://www.instagram.com/fitzsbaramsterdam/
Pillows Hotel on IG: https://www.instagram.com/pillows.mauritsatthepark/
Pic Credit: Albert van Beeck Calkoen, aka Mister Cocktail: https://www.instagram.com/mister.cocktail/
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And we're back with the Philip Duff Show live from Amsterdam. Nick Vrielink. What time is it there, mate? It's like what 3 p.m.?
SPEAKER_00It's 3 p.m. indeed, yes.
SPEAKER_01And the weather the weather was shit, but it's got better, right?
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes. Well, today, yeah, today's sunny, so I did a little uh morning walk this morning and uh went uh yeah, went through the little snow we had, which was falling down this this night. So it was was was nice. Nice, nice to finally see some sun after months of grey, grey clouds. So yeah.
SPEAKER_01If you well, if you think the weather is bad in Holland, to give you some idea, when I moved to Holland from Ireland, I was like, the weather is great here, it's warm. Because after Ireland it was.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, I can imagine. I think the same with the UK as well. They have this actually, I think all of them they have about the same kind of weather climate in a way.
SPEAKER_01Well, something that comes up a lot is the idea of the grape line and the grain line. Um, like the grape line is if you draw a line horizontally above the top of France, everyone below that line, like they drink wine with dinner, sitting outside in the sun, and the children are running around, and grandfather's there, and you know, it's this amazing thing. And above that line, everybody drinks distilled spirits made from grain with other men in a big hull out of the skull of your dead enemy, and there's no children and no sunshine.
SPEAKER_00I think that's just right. It's it's yeah, it's just correct, I guess, right? It's um yeah, that's where that's where bar where the bars are born, like the cocktail warriors and stuff.
SPEAKER_01So I think we're at space in between. So, Nick, about half my listeners, uh well, about a third are in Europe, a third are in America, and a third are in places like Asia and South America. So, could you give people what they call the the Nick Vrelink elevator pitch? Like who you are and how your career was so successful that you finally got on the Philip Dove Show?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, first of all, it's amazing to be in the Philip Dove Show. Um so yeah, I'm Nick Vrink. Um born in the Netherlands. Uh, then I moved to Spain for six years when I was eight together with my family. And then when I was 14, I came back to the Netherlands also with my family. Then I got some aging on Spain, as they uh as they say. And yeah, I got I my my family is hospitality family, so I always grew up within the hospitality in a restaurant and in a bar. So I think with that the hospitality is in my blood. And yeah, I'm just a humble, humble bartender, loves to make drinks, and yeah, last year was an amazing year for me. So that was actually something which was a rocket up to the sky. Won the best new cocktail bar in the Netherlands for 2023 by Entree magazine. Um, second time national champion for the MBC as well, uh, which is part of the IBA. And then you also have the possibility to go to the World Fine World Champion cocktails in Rome, which was this year in Rome in 2023. And yeah, was was happy. I just went there with okay, how how how would everything go? And yeah, got a gold medal there, so it was really something amazing to to achieve, and something really unexpected some somehow.
SPEAKER_01So well, maybe not totally unexpected, like if you've won the Dutch contest twice, it's not impossible.
SPEAKER_00Nah, that's true, it's not impossible, but I went I went there actually with more of the of the vibe of okay. I know I go there next year again. So next year it's uh the final is in Madeira, also really nice, really nice island, lots of flowers. So I'm really diving into that. So it was just more taking this this uh this edition to just check how everything goes and how everything went. And then yeah, I went to the top 15, and I think overall I became number six, so pretty good achievement on that.
SPEAKER_01I like the way you said, you know, you moved to Spain when you were eight, and you added with your family, just in case there was any doubt that you decided, fuck it, I'm out of here at the age of eight.
SPEAKER_00It would have would have been an amazing story, right?
SPEAKER_01It's it'd be pretty impressive, yeah. Where did you grow up in the Netherlands, Nick?
SPEAKER_00In uh Daventer.
SPEAKER_01Oh wow. Well, there's not much more to say about Daventer then.
SPEAKER_00Although it is lovely, right? It is a lovely city, it's pretty yeah, it's uh it's small, it's next to a lake, which uh yeah, which is nice. I've I've been there until my eighth, and then I don't remember a lot of it anymore, just that I sometimes now pass by it and sometimes I go to a terrace or to a beer there. But other than that, everything is uh it's out of my mind. It's not it's not in memory anymore. Um, in Spain I have a little bit more of memory, of course, because it's from your 8th until your 14th. So there you learn you learn all the basics. So you learn uh your Spanish, of course, the language, the grammatics, and also your friends, they stick around a little bit longer, and then you move back to the Netherlands, so then you say goodbye to them again, and then you come back to the Netherlands, and then we moved actually to the north part in uh in Friesland.
SPEAKER_01Oh wow!
SPEAKER_00Which is uh yeah, Frisian, which is also a kind of a language, and they are yeah, they were really welcoming in that way, so it was really nice to to be there. We we we lived in Lemer, um which is on the ISO Mir, so it has a little little beach as well. So really nice in the into into the summer, but during the winter it's kind of of a haunted place. So everybody everybody was there normally in summer. Normally in summer there are like 20 to 30,000 people, but during the winter, I think only the habitants are there, so then it's only 10,000 left. So it's really a bit haunted in comparison to the summer, but the summer is amazing, especially if you want to go for for um yeah, some boat sports or water sports, it's an amazing place to go there. Um, yeah, and then when I turned 19, actually I moved to to Amsterdam and then started working here, and actually never left Amsterdam until now.
SPEAKER_01Where did you start in Amsterdam?
SPEAKER_00I started at Hilton Schiphol, so on the airport. Um, so it was really nice, nice experience to to start there because it was also startup of the bar there, was the the new the new building as we know it now. So we we were I was thrown into uh a gin bar, and I was just starting my career as a bartender. So they said, okay, here's the gins. It's about 90 to 100 gins. Just start to read, just start to read through it and learn all the gins out of it, which son it goes with the best, which garnish you need to use with this. Just really starting from the basics, and yeah, just just learn with it and go with it. And it was really nice experience to uh to be there actually.
SPEAKER_01It's the only hotel that's actually inside the airport that you can walk to from the uh departure lounge.
SPEAKER_00Yes, that's true. Yeah, especially yeah, uh cocktail bar, definitely. There are more bars, of course, in the skip hole inside. But if you really want to drink some nice cocktails, then you should definitely go there if you're if you're in skip hall and you have a delayed flight or anything like that, just just go there.
SPEAKER_01It's uh where where where after that, Nick?
SPEAKER_00After that, I had a little um just a couple of months. I started uh a little bar as a bar supervisor together with somouye, who also worked there in the same in the same hotel. There was more about um food pairing. So we had um the chef said, like we gotta do we're gonna do a concept that's gonna be 80-20. So 80% is vegetables, so that's actually the main dish. And then if you want to have a side dish, which can be fish or meat, it's the other 20%, which is complementary to your dish. So then he said, Would be nice if we can do some cocktails or anything like that as a food as a food pairing as well. So I was like, okay, let's let's go for it. I was young, so I was just determined to learn a lot about flavors and about food and about drinks, about just general everything. So in that way, I think I really was just thrown into the deep. And after a couple of months, I was like, okay, is this really what I want? It was just a small place. So then I started to look further, and then I found another concept inside of Amsterdam, which was Juniper and Kin, uh, which opened in 2018. And from there, actually, I started to be a bit more professional about the bartending job, really. Um, about it, all the all the all the stuff we do now, still a days. So infusing, macerating, fermentation, from fermentation. It was all about sustainability in that way, so it was really about reusing, closing the loop, all this kind of stuff. And we had our own greenhouse on top of the roof, so that was something truly amazing to go up every day to the greenhouse, pick your basil, pick your mint, everything you need for the shift, and then start do your mission plus, and then from there you open the doors, and yeah, it's was just an amazing place to be there. Unfortunately, during COVID, it went bankrupt. So then uh yeah, we had some holidays, five months, five months of holidays, some chilling, of course. Also, my neighbor was like, Okay, I need somebody because he was a he he turned into a private chef because he also was jobless at that on that on that time. So he turned into a private chef, and then he said, like, maybe it's nice to do cocktail pairings as well with the dishes I make. So this is what we did um during that time, just to keep ourselves busy, not to make a lot of money, but it was it was it was good, it was good to do. Um, and then our former GM called me as he said, Hey, would you like to start up and open a bar in the Hague? And I was like, in The Hague?
SPEAKER_01Um, I'll have to jump in here for foreign listeners. The Hague is the least cool place in the Netherlands. And most of my career in Holland, I started off in Rotterdam. And I was working in the hottest cocktail bars then, places like Mad Mix Breakaway Cafe in the Baya Beach Club. And we used to have a competition with the other bartenders as to how many people would be in the bar from The Hague. Because if you ask people where are you from on a Friday or Saturday, at least one in three was from The Hague, which gives you some idea of how little there was to do in The Hague. So I that that's why listeners, Nick was giggling when he was asked to open a bar in The Hague.
SPEAKER_00No, it's true. It's it's now starting to to become bigger, uh, which I'm really, really happy about. And uh, but when when I started there, I was like, okay, the Hague, well, let's let's just see. Let's let's see how it goes. And I we opened the bar, and it was actually was actually a really nice team. I set up up there. We had a really nice concept, it was uh all about nautical, and about yeah, about you had all kind of ship instruments on the on the walls, so it was really deep blue, all about well, you you can say a little bit of the piratey and uh what was it called, Nick? Ultramarine, it was called.
SPEAKER_01And was it in a hotel?
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes, it was in the hotel vocal.
SPEAKER_01Excellent. Yeah, I've heard of that actually.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so it was was a really nice place, opening up that place, and also not being nominated as best new bar um together on 20 2022. And then yeah, just the traveling back and forth was was giving me the head that was like, this is this is just too much for me going up and down from Amsterdam to The Hague. It's just a bit of uh of a lot of travel. And then I had this beautiful place where I passed by with my girlfriend on the bike, and I was like, What is this? And it was just all banners around the building, uh new five-star hotel opening up soon. If you want to join the team, just send us a meal. So that's actually what I did. I was like just really curious about okay, what are you guys gonna do? What is the concept? What is the philosophy? What do you want to achieve in the in the next couple of years? And yeah, three days later, they invited me, said, like, come on over for coffee, and everything felt felt right at the at the start. Like, okay, this is something I would like to like to join. I would like to join this journey with them. And yeah, then uh they gave me the bar of fitz, and as well the other outlets, because the um pillows. We're talking about about pillows, sorry. So from there, um, in pillows, we have four outlets. We I would say so. We have Fitz Bar, which is the high-end cocktail bar, then we have Van Oost, fine dining restaurant. So they are more achieving to the Michelin star part, and then we have spring, which is more the brasserie, and then on top of that, we have Fitz on the Roof, so that's only open during summer when it's 20 degrees and more sunny, not too windy. So you can imagine the weather here. It's not open that often. There's not well, it wasn't that it wasn't open that often this year, last year, but I think this year I hope we can open the doors a little bit more because last year was not that not that much, but it's a nice place on top of the roof, sitting in the park on the Maurits park. So it's it's really good.
SPEAKER_01Well, I really want to talk about all of that, but I just want to rewind a little bit. So when you sort of moved to Amsterdam and you know really started getting into the profession of bartending, what were the main sources of learning for you?
SPEAKER_00Well, the main sources of learning, I would say, of course, visiting seminaries, uh, talking with professionals who have who have been doing this craft for years already, before you as well. And I think that's something really everybody should take in mind. That there are always professionals who have more experience and they have been running this business for years longer than you have been. So it's it's always good to put an air, even if uh you think uh maybe it's not it's not that interesting or anything like that. There are also always a couple of things which you can pick up and can you can use also for your own uh for your own experience, for your own career in a way, but also for your own recipes or anything like that. Um so that's one, of course, reading a lot of books. My my work, yeah, the the bookshelf is full of different books, uh, reading them, going through them, then sometimes just letting them stand and not touching them, and then just picking up picking up picking up once once more when you're like, ah how did that work again? And how did it work? Just repeating a lot of things. It's uh it's also I think when you have something that you do something for let's say a thousand times, it will stick, it will be stuck in your brain. So I think that's that's something. Uh anything else? Yeah, I would also say teaching as well. Um, if you teach something to somebody else in terms of doing a masterclass, doing a seminar in inside of the team, even if you we have a team together, like now we are with five five bartenders, and it's just really nice to talk with each other about stuff, just interacting. Okay, how do you think about this subject? How do you think about whiskey? How do you think about this certain ingredient? Or did you find any specific ingredient out of ACR which we didn't heard of, or anything like that? So it's pretty interesting to put all the minds always together in that yeah, learning is a process and it will never end. So yeah.
SPEAKER_01And if you get a young bartender on the team, what's the like first book you recommend they read? Like, what do you think was the book that helped you the most when you started to really get into this?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I would when I started, uh my first book was the The Craft of Cocktails from Dildek Gruff. Uh it was the first start. Yeah, it was a really great start. It was the first book I've I've read, and it's just so nice. It's it's a it's a book which has a lot of layers. You can learn a lot of it, especially if you're just starting, it's not too too overwhelming in one in one way. If you start to get if you start straight away with liquid intelligence, for instance, then I think you get you you will get lost in one way if you if you're not used to the basic stuff yet. I think basics are always there, they're they are there to be a basic in a way, or a classic. It's cla it's it are the classic cocktails and they survive the the matter of time. So I think that's one of the most important things to to learn.
SPEAKER_01Would you give a young bartender like the the updated craft of the cocktail? Because there's a new edition out now.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, definitely. Definitely. I haven't I haven't I haven't read that one actually, but I would definitely say like okay, you should you should read that one because at the end the one I've read, I think it was is now about 10 years, 10 years old, maybe even older. So I think if you if you go on and you want to go to the modern mixology anyways, it's a good way to start.
SPEAKER_01No, it's it's at least it's like 60% a new book. I really uh recommend it very highly. Dale's uh Dale's a good friend. I ask because um you know, if you put it down on paper, your your rise has been meteoric. You've gone from you know the Hilton to really taking the business seriously, and within you know five years, you're winning, you know, global gold medals, uh two renowned cocktail bars under your belt. And something, I suppose, to point out is we've still got so much to do in the world of bars and cocktails because uh you were biking past this hotel being renovated, and they said apply, and you sent an email and and they hired you, which is amazing. And you've you know you've won these accolades for Fitzbar. But who would ever dream of opening a hotel without having the chef in place? Right? But clearly this hotel did not have the bar manager in place. And the irony is obviously the bar makes actually all the money, as opposed to you know, restaurants are great, but it's very hard to make profits. So there's still a long way for us to go, I feel.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I feel the same. I think if they because when they opened a fine dining restaurant, for instance, they the chef was in place. When they opened the brasserie, the chef was in place already. It's just when you open a bar, they don't have the bar manager or the headbart tender already, which is actually in some ways it's um well, it is actually a shame because we always look so we always look to the bar, and you come into the bar, especially in hotels, where you look at where you're looking at the station, and then you're like, wow, fuck what do you guys do? Come on, let's go. And then you you actually, yeah, in one way you're like, just just get just get a bartender or bar manager. If you don't know, if you don't have one, just get somebody who knows, who knows what they do, and let let him make the route, the the bar, the raw route of how a bar should be setting set it up because it will have help the bar team in the end to to make the drinks faster, to keep the consistency, um, yeah, and also make have the bar team happy. Now I need to be lucky with the bar I I've got in uh in Fitz. It's uh it's I think the best bar I've got in a hotel bar. There are still improvements, of course, but overall I was really happy to to find a bar with with nice ice wells, with a nice icing. I was yeah, I was good. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's it's the number one peeve when they've let an architect design it because that doesn't happen with chefs. Usually the chef gets to design their own kitchen, certainly you know, at quite a high level, and that can also save a lot of money, too.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, true. It's it's also when you when you because you well, especially here in Amsterdam, for instance, or in the Netherlands, we have Collins bar systems, which are really good systems which you can use. And yeah, they they also knew Collins systems. When I talked to them in the interview, they said, like, okay, yeah, we we know these guys. And then I said, like, okay, but Are we gonna have one of their systems? And then he was like, Yeah, yeah, I think so. It's like, okay. Then when the bar was there, it was like, no, it was not. And he's like, Yeah, no, we they made it uh they made a better copy of it. I was like, No, it's it's not a better copy, it it does the trick, but it's not a better copy than the colon system because the colon system you can adjust however you like, and everybody, every every bartender has their own preference on how to set it up. But I'm I'm still happy with it, don't worry about it. But it's uh there were improvements.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, what's what is we're fortunate now, we're more than 28 years into the second golden cocktail age. It really started in London around 1995. So there are a lot of people who really understand this and understand how valuable cocktails are to restaurants, hotels who are now you know FB directors and stuff like that. There's a friend of mine, Felix Hartman, who is the uh European FB director for Hilton. So when he you know interacts with all the various hotels, he is putting in you know the right word and say, okay, put in a good system, it will pay for itself, literally, even within a year, yeah, right, compared to putting in uh a lesser system. But there's more than just hardware at play. So you uh you know built Ultramarine in uh The Hague, and then you came to build Fitz, which was your second kind of team as a manager, right?
SPEAKER_00Indeed, yes.
SPEAKER_01How did you approach it then? Like, did you recruit the staff yourself? Did HR from the hotel filter them and then have they had an interview with you? How did it work?
SPEAKER_00Um we're talking about fits, right? Yeah, yeah. So um at Fitz. At first uh was recruiting myself, then we also had some internal uh job positions open. So somebody from Brussels, Ruggero, he also uh who actually made the the green light with the Philip Duff or with uh really nice malt wine of you, which we are gonna talk about.
SPEAKER_01Amazing looking. I didn't realize he was from uh Belgium.
SPEAKER_00No, he's not from Belgium, he's Italian, but he He was working there, he was working in Brussels for a while, and then he heard about uh us opening the the bar, and he was like, Wow, I would really love to be part of it. And then I had a really good talk with him. Uh, we worked together on one event, and it was like, okay, you're you're good to go. Come come and join the team, please. Would be nice to have you on board. Um, then I had somebody who I knew from uh a previous job I worked with, and then from that part it was a lot of searching, putting vacancies online on bar match stuff, on Indeed, on wherever. But as we just came out of COVID and uh yeah, the the hospitality, especially on that turn on that time, was really really hunting for for people or for good stuff in general. So there was really something hard. And I need to say, like, after a roller coaster of people leaving and and and go, yeah, going and and coming over again. I think in May now, yeah, from from May on, we have now a stable team. So nobody is, we are still the same team as of May. So nobody left and nobody joined the team yet. I think uh somewhere in March or April I'm able to open a new position. But for now, we are really stable, the team is stable, we all know what the goal is, the bigger, the bigger dream. And that's really nice to have them all on board on the same page as uh as as we would like to go.
SPEAKER_01So let's get the timeline going here. When did you start at uh Pillows?
SPEAKER_00Uh November 2022.
SPEAKER_01November 2022, and it's it only took you until May 2023 to get a stable team. Considering all the the bullshit of COVID, that's not bad at all.
SPEAKER_00No, no, I'm really I'm really happy about it as well because I know uh that a lot of other bars and restaurants and other hospitality outlets have been struggling so much during that time. And yeah, I'm really happy that that it turned out like this, and that I'm still with the same team as I've built of that of that yeah, from that point on. So yeah, just just being a happy man and lucky with it.
SPEAKER_01Well, just to give some idea for our listeners, uh, I've been out of uh the Netherlands for 12 years now, living here in New York. So my numbers are probably out of date. Um, not specifically talking about fits, but a bartender who works in a good cocktail bar, right? Maybe not the very top, but a good cocktail bar uh in Amsterdam, what would they uh earn per month all in?
SPEAKER_00Nowadays, I think, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Without tips, it would be about um let's talk about net salary or put or uh yeah, let's say because again, for my American listeners, they're gonna hate this. Uh, you don't need to worry about hospital bills or bills for the dentist or the you know uh vision or stuff like that. And you get your your pension and your 13th month and and all these actually everyone in America is gonna stop listening as soon as I say that. So, but what um after all that's been taken care of, what shows what is your net, I guess, every month before tips?
SPEAKER_00I think out of salary, if you have if you work in a good place, it will be about 2,000 to 22,000 euros.
SPEAKER_01That's net after all taxes, you get 2200 euros in your bank account.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes, and that's then without without tips.
SPEAKER_01And what might tips be in like an okay cocktail bar?
SPEAKER_00In an okay cocktail bar, um I well I don't compare to my own, so I would say about 500-ish a month, yeah. Yeah, something like that, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And just for comparison, what would you pay for rent a month in Amsterdam? I know it's gone crazy. Uh recently.
SPEAKER_00That's something we went really, really up, and that's really like I'm really happy that I'm living here for a while now. So uh for my house I'm paying 1200. Yeah, 1200, and then that's without the gas and electricity. With that, with that would be 1500 more or less. So that's actually a really really good price because I know that some of my uh my colleagues they just found a house which is on their own, and they also pay about 12 to 1300 ish, and that's just a room attached, shareable with somebody. So yeah, it's it's for uh I would say you you pay that for about 30 square meters nowadays.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, it's a it's a big problem, actually, and it's a global problem. And I first noticed it almost 10 years ago in London of all places. Um, the American bar at the Savoy, amazing cocktail bar. Savoy is part of the Fairmont Luxury Hotel Group. And I've known and know the last five or six head bartenders, and every single one of them, if I go out for dinner or drinks with them, at some point without me asking, will tell me that the hardest part of their job is not the PR and it's not dealing with the customers and it's not the late night, it's it's uh making sure that their staff earn enough money. Yeah, and that means you have to schedule the staff for enough shifts that they remain full-time, but they need as much time off as they can get to work external gigs because they cannot afford to live in London, you know, which is and it this is something happening around the world.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, it's true. It's true. I think in London it it it would be a bit bit worse than in Amsterdam still, but um, especially when I was there, I looked at some advertisements on the um on the housings, I was looking at it, and then I saw like it's like 700 pounds, and I was like, oh, that's cheap. And then I saw per week, I was like, okay, wow, that's that's something else. That's really something else. Because at first you you look at it seven 700 pounds, that's doable.
SPEAKER_03I mean per week?
unknownWhat?
SPEAKER_00That's crazy. It's really crazy if you think about it. Um, so yeah, I think in London, especially price-wise, would be really much worse than than Amsterdam, um, though, still you pay pay pay a lot of money for for a room or anything in Amsterdam as well nowadays. And uh we also don't see it improving, they're doing a lot of things out of the government as well to see if they can improve things, also with the um yeah, with the uh with the house owners saying, like, okay, if you have this this house, like looking at the energy level to say, like, okay, if you have this energy A level, you can ask this amount of money. If you go to B, you cannot ask that high amount of money anymore. So you need to lower your price on the rental. So, in one way, they are improving a lot of things in the from out the government, but it's still it's still hard to find a find a find a nice, nice apartment house, whatever. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, or even a shitty one, because this this industry it depends on young people coming in and you know, starting off, and initially they won't even be making the money that you know you're you're quoting. And it's okay to you know share an apartment or have a shitty thing when you're young. Yeah, um, but increasingly people are saying, no, fuck that, I'm not going to do it, or I'm gonna work remotely, and that affects recruitment in hospitality.
SPEAKER_00Definitely, and that's also something what we what we saw when we opened the hotel, and what what we did actually from out the hotel saying, like, okay, we know it's hard to find the housing, it's really hard to find any place. So if you don't find anything, we we can say, okay, stay for a month inside of the hotel, start to look around, go to viewing and yeah, see if you can find the housing or something with a colleague or anything like that. So we we try to help them a lot. So we said you can stay for a month, but some people also stayed for three or four months. We didn't put like a set date on them, like, okay, now you need to move out. Of course, this is something we we did in the beginning, and now because the hotel is also running, running good, so we don't have all the space anymore to host our colleagues anymore. So that's um that's something we don't do anymore. But it was something which we said, okay, we need to have the people inside, and that's I think a nice way to come to Amsterdam as well. So you don't feel the rush straight away before going to Amsterdam saying, uh, I really need to find a house. So you can go at ease, check out of Amsterdam, see if you like Amsterdam as well, if you haven't been, then it's also something to consider. And some people said, Okay, after months, this other night was nice, nice, nice experience, but we leave. And some people stayed longer, and they they still work now for us. So it's a really nice achievement.
SPEAKER_01It's not that long ago, it's really only five or six years, that I would see friends of mine, bartenders in Amsterdam, saying, Looking for a new place, who's got the golden tip, maximum 800 euros a month. Yeah, and you know, they were looking for an apartment for that. That's now that's now changed.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's gone. That's gone. 800 euros. Yeah, it's it's really hard. It's really hard. You you you you still have these these golden tickets, you still you still find them some days, but no, these days that's like a better cardboard box behind Central Stadium. That's like under just under the bridge, and then if you're happy, then you can drink a dry martini there. But that's it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, in in a nice area. So when you were recruiting, um both both in Ultramarine and uh for fit, um, something I've noticed is that especially in the bar industry in Holland, since you know 1995, when I moved there and I travel back very often, um, it's become much, much, much, much, much more international. Yes. Right? It used to be almost exclusively the province of people who were born and raised in the Netherlands.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Right? They might have all different skin colors and their parents are from somewhere else or whatever. That doesn't really matter. But they were all born and raised in the Netherlands. I was an anomaly, so was the whole breakaway crew, so was the whole Bia Beach Club crew and the Crazy Pianos crew. But a very much a regional thing. And now, if I go back to the Netherlands to teach about Old Duff Geneva, I can't speak Dutch anymore because there's so many people who've moved. Like, did you what what did you notice of that at Ultramarine? And then again at Fitz.
SPEAKER_00Well, as we said, Ultramarine, Ultramarine was in the Haag. In Die Haag, um, I actually had only people from the Netherlands working there. Uh yeah, especially in the start, we only had Dutch people working in Ultramarine. Um, well, yeah, Curaçao is also the Netherlands, right? In a way. So yeah, yeah, then it was only Dutch people.
SPEAKER_01Um Curaçao is much cooler than the Netherlands, even though it's just a rock. It's a very sunny rock in the Caribbean.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, a a little bit.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, it was really it's something I didn't had in everywhere in my career. I never had a full Dutch team. And in the Haag, I managed to feel to have it, which was nice in a way, but also sometimes you you miss the different kinds of cultures in a team. So for me, it's always nice to have different cultures inside of a team so you can talk about them, and then you feel them for in especially in Ottawaine, it was nice to have people from the Netherlands but with different kinds of roots. So one was a little bit more about Indonesian, some was from Curaçao, so we had one tropical, one more from Asia. So it was was really was really nice to work with them. And now in Fitz. Um yeah, I'm the I'm actually the only Dutch guy officially. Then there is uh we also have a lady who is working part-time with us, she's from Iceland. Uh so that's also pretty interesting. And then I got three Italians on board. So of course, yeah. But these guys are everybody's amazing with hospitality. It's it's great, great to work with them.
SPEAKER_01Um, so when you were trying to find people in November 2022 for fits, um what was in the front of your mind that you were looking for? And what were the kind of questions you'd ask in an interview or when you were chatting with somebody to sort of find out, you know, are they are they my people? Are they the are they the people I want to take on this journey?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so that was really interesting because some some interviews I did online, so you couldn't really see the guy or you couldn't taste the cocktail or anything like that. So that was really something you needed to be more creative with the with the kind of questions you asked. So one of the questions which is always remembered by uh by the team is the one that I said to them say, Okay, I'm gonna ask you, for instance, okay, what is your favorite drink? So then you will tell me your favorite drink, and then from that part I would ask you, like, okay, so can you explain me this drink to a blind guest who is not seeing anything, but without without using the ingredients, so really describing of how the drink would feel, would taste, would look, and what kind of vibe it will bring to the to the guest. So this is one of the of the main questions which I felt like okay, can they really um live in inside of somebody else? Saying, like, okay, the guest the guest cannot see how beautiful the cocktail is, cannot see that it's red. Maybe the guy the guest doesn't even know that that how red looks, but he knows how something smells, he knows how something sounds, and I think in that way, um, I would always see who who can do this, because in the end, for me, everything is about hospitality and about caring about the guest who is in front of you. So, yeah, that's that's the the main question. And then there are other questions, of course, saying, Okay, what is your favorite era of cocktail? What do you like the most? What do you like to play with? What can be your twist on your favorite drink? All these kinds of things.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I heard a good interview question recently, and it was like, what if you found 500 euros just lying on the ground? What would you do with it? Right? And there's no right or wrong answer, but some people would say, you know, I would go out and drink lots of expensive whiskey and you know, go to a nightclub. And other people would say, well, you know, I'd put 400 euros in the bank and you know, I'd upgrade my phone. And it's just about what would you do with something? Are you a kind of a spontaneous wild party person or are you a planner and a plotter and that kind of thing?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's also a really nice one, actually. I think I would invest it in some some whiskey or anything.
SPEAKER_01But yeah, what would you do?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I would I would invest it in an in a nice bottle of whiskey, which I which I know can be can be more worth in the upcoming years or anything like that. I wouldn't spend it actually on on just a party. It's I'm still spontaneous, don't worry about it. But it's not that I that I would that if I find 500 euros, like, okay, let's spend it all on one night. That's not the type of guy I am.
SPEAKER_01So, in terms of hospitality, um, very hard to gauge, except with Italians, you could just assume it's gonna be good. I have this theory that all the Italians who are shitty at hospitality, they keep them in Italy and they just export the good ones. Because I haven't met a bad one yet, and I'm actually going to Italy uh on Thursday. Yeah, so so watch out, Rome and Florence. But uh, how is that something that you gauge that you assess in an interview? Is you what do you look for in people? Are there any questions you ask to try and get an idea?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, it's really about okay, what is your yeah, time just to get a more of um of a vision of how the employee is and who you have in front of you. So you really want to know, okay, what are your hobbies? What do you know, what do you normally do? Um what do you do if you have a day off or anything like that? Would you spend it on your job, or would you spend it on your hobby or anything? Yeah, or just chill and relax. Um, also to balance out your team in a way, not to have all of the same people, because I think that's also something important. If you have all of the same guys and ladies, then there is no really a balance, and you only have one type of employee, and it's it's always nice to have a balance in the team. So it's really uh for me, it's really kind of knowing okay, what type what kind of type are you, and does it fit into the team? Um, that's always something I look at, and from there I build.
SPEAKER_01Well, you do need all kinds of people in the team, and I feel like one of the strengths and weaknesses of uh young people new to the world of you know fancy bars and fancy cocktails is that they go all in and they they read every book, go to every seminar, follow every Instagram, watch every TikTok, buy every toy, you know, they work in bars, they make cocktails, they talk about cocktails on their day off, they go to other cocktail bars and talk about cocktails to that bartender. And it leads to the classic joke, which is you know, a mixologist is someone, if you ask him the time, he'll tell you how to build a clock.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Whereas if you have something else going on in your life, you have a boyfriend or a girlfriend or a dog or a hobby, uh, a thing that you like to do, it can really enrich you to connect with guests. Because the easiest way to break the heart of a very hardcore young bartender is to tell them that the drink is not the most important thing. But of course it's
SPEAKER_00No, true. True. It's more the vibe you said and uh the interactions you have with the guest. And it's really funny, funny you say because um I have well for instance, we uh I have Luca who is 22, and he is this rough diamond, and he is all about mixology and about how everything works. And as you said, if you ask him on how to what time it is, he will explain you how how you need to build a clock, and then how the clock and then you can watch yourself. No, but he is he is one of the night, he is one of the the kindest and so passionate about cocktails that he also sometimes loses himself in it, which can work against him, but also for him in one way or another. But yeah, it's I also sometimes try to okay, just take it easy, chill down a little bit. Don't don't overthink, don't don't make it too complicated for yourself, but also for your for your guest in the end. They don't really not not everybody would like to know how he makes the the ollo sacrum, for instance, or just something like that. And it's an easy, easy, an easy uh how you say an easy example, but it's not it's not necessary to to talk in details to the drink, but more about okay, what kind of inspiration has the drink so people can relate to it, and that's also something we do at Fitz, is really to bring the storyline back to it because in the end fitz is related to Fitzgerald, uh, big writer during the Warring 20s, great Gatsby. So we really like to put our menu as well in different kinds of chapters, saying, okay, we have the chapter of poetry where we have some poetry going on and different kinds of drinks, which are inspired by that. Uh, then there's the world of perfume, which uh, for instance, we have the essence number five, which is inspired by the Chanel number five, which is launched in 20 on 1921. So all these kind of things relating to the Warring 20s, but all with more than kind of techniques and and flavors in that way.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's uh that thing about relating to guests. I always love to give the example of Salvatore Calabresi because when he got the okay from his GM to start buying some incredibly expensive pre-flocks or a cognacs, you know, he bought these incredible things, he put them in the cabinet, he put them on the menu with descriptions and all that, and they just didn't sell. They weren't selling, and he, you know, couldn't understand it. Um he would recommend them to people, nothing would happen. And one day he got an American customer in the hotel, you know, mega luxury hotel in London, and the guy was a huge fan of the former American uh president Jefferson, right? Thomas Jefferson. That was, you know, in talking to him, Salvatore learned this, and he said, Well, we've got a cognac here that was distilled when Thomas Jefferson was the president, and that was it. He obviously sold uh several shots of that cognac, and that became his way of connecting with people that he would find out their thing. It's like, oh, are you a World War II freak? Well, here is a cognac that was distilled, and it was all made by the women because the men are away at fighting the war, it's the year of the ladies, all that kind of thing. So you really do have to do it. It's hard enough if your guests are already twice your age and they might earn 10 times your income. And maybe they're from, you know, Australia or Nigeria or Beijing. But being able to connect with something is is very valuable. It's kind of hard. I was a very hardcore cocktail bartender when I was young, and I couldn't believe that people didn't want to hear about you know my oleo saccharum or my infusion or something.
SPEAKER_00No, and I I had the same thing when I was younger. I was also thinking, like, why don't they they don't care about what I did all in the missing plus time, which they don't see? And in one way, then at one point you start to understand that the guest is there to have fun, to get entertained. And yeah, some people get entertained by the production of it, but some people get just entertained by that it's inspired by something, so they can connect with it and they understand why this drink is made, um, which is at the end still something you like to sell because it's a signature, but it's it's something I think a lot of youngsters forget that of course it's nice and you put a lot of effort inside of a drink, but it's always something about connecting with the guest. Um, and if it I think the the example you give from Salvador Calavres is is really searching the point of okay, where can I find the connection from a certain beverage um or spirit to a guest if you have a really high-end whiskey and you know the um the guest can spend the money on it and you can find the connection between that spirit and the guest, I think that's really valuable for the guest, but also for the for the company you work for, of course.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. And I do think one of the problems, in a way, of the huge uh reverence that we have for chefs and fine dining now, because we have you know entire TV channels only about cooking. We have dozens and dozens of cooking shows with millions and millions of followers. Uh, there are TV dramas about chefs, but fundamentally, obviously, the job of a chef is different to that of a bartender because the chef doesn't have to leave the kitchen. And in some cases, it's not allowed. Whereas we are out front the whole time. But if you're a young bartender, you see the chefs obsessing about stuff. And certainly in the TV dramas, the chef is always like an alcoholic or some problem with his parents or his girlfriends, always something. And they they put it all into their work. Whereas as bartenders, we've got to be hosts, yeah, uh as much as mixologists and maybe more.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, I agree. I agree fully on that. Um, and I think we are the we are the liquid chefs in that way. We also work with, I think sometimes we have even more components we can work with than chefs can. It's just the the chefs in certain techniques they have more knowledge, but in other techniques we have more knowledge. So it's also always the trick of finding a good chef and work together with him to really have the interaction and exchange different experiences and different kinds of ways of methods to to improve yourself, but also the chef in the end. And yeah, it's just the understanding sometimes from the guest that a bartender can do the kind of the same job as a chef does in the back, which they don't see because they know okay, the chef has to do a lot of meeting plus, so he starts at 12 o'clock in the morning or even or even earlier. But if the bartender does that, it's kind of strange. Why why you do it? Because you you make a drink, right? But this this is something still an understanding which is not there yet. But I think, especially with all the high-end cocktail bars which are popping up, it's something which is growing definitely. And you also see the understanding of the guest more and more and more of how things work in a bar, especially if you if they're really interested in how you make a drink, and then Luca goes along and he can tell his story about how he made it, and then the guest will be like, okay, now I understand why you need to come in, come on early, like four or five hours before your shift, just to fix this drink. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, there's an expectation that the chef is working his or her arse off and they're coming in early and it's hot and it's difficult and all of that. But as bartenders, we've always got to appear very cool and easy, you know, like swans drifting along, even though you're paddling like fuck underneath it. Like very few people will ever say, Oh, you know, when I retire, I'm going to go and work as a chef in the kitchen, because there is an understanding. It's very hard demanding work. But a lot of people say, Oh, I'm going to buy a little pub, I'm going to buy a little hotel, because they've seen somebody like Salvatore Calabresi or a really good hotel GM just like gliding around. Hello, good evening, welcome. You know, maybe sit down with a guest every now and then, welcome. It looks great, but they don't see the other side of that, the hard work that's behind it.
SPEAKER_00No, that's it. That's it. You do you really don't see it. And um, I remember that in the early stage of my career, somebody said to me, like, we need to be this um these hosts which are adapting um to a bowl as water. So when you when you've been when you when you because you always need to adapt to a certain situation as a bartender, because suddenly strange things can happen in a bar, because of course we work with alcohol. Um, so yeah, people can react weird on it as well. So sometimes you need to switch your mind to say, okay, we adapt to the situation and we just go with the flow again. So sometimes you're in a bowl, sometimes you're in a cube, and sometimes you're in a rectangular or a triangle, you know. So it's just about going with it, going with the flow. I think that's one of the main main points out of yeah, for us. Um, the chefs are just just just lucky that they don't need to face all this drama sometimes.
SPEAKER_01Well, they have enough going on. So uh down to brass tacks. How do you uh communicate with your team? Like apart from on shift, like do you have meetings before the shift, after shift? Do you have a monthly meeting, a WhatsApp group?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we have a we have a WhatsApp group. Uh yeah, it's it's it's just the easiest communication tool, especially if you have something to to mention. Um, and then we do a monthly monthly meeting. And then um also, yeah, we'll we always start up together. So during we're setting up everything, then we do a little briefing of how how the occupancy is of the hotel, what we can expect if there's any event in Amsterdam or anything like that. So we just go go along with it.
SPEAKER_01And do you um this is not uncommon in hotels? Do you have briefings like oh, VIP guest so-and-so is staying here, or somebody is coming into the bar tonight? Things like that.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes, yes. You we every every morning we get a VIP sheet actually, and this one I share instantly on the on the WhatsApp group so they can watch out for the for the or watch out. They they get they know, okay, we have the VIP guest. Um that said, we treat every guest equal. Um but some so for some some guests because they are a VIP from the hotel, because they stayed a long uh longer time, or they they have been several times with us, then it's also nice for us to see, okay, do we do we do we know the gentleman or the lady to to welcome them in a in a nice way from from our from our point as well, because we have been seeing them a couple of times.
SPEAKER_01And you know, you can teach people skills, obviously, how to make cocktails, how to move fast, be efficient. You can teach them about uh you know drinks and spirits and stuff, but in terms of hospitality, are there things you do in an ongoing way to teach your team about hospitality or to keep everybody stimulating one another?
SPEAKER_00Um not not specifically, actually. Um, yeah, we do some outings or anything like that. So we go, we just do a little bit of team building, of course. That yes. Um, and to get everybody on the same line, everybody gets like a bar manual, which we've made for the for the bar, just to understand uh how important service is, uh, and about also understanding the whole concept about what we do so everybody can tell the same story. Um, other than that, yeah, we just go with the flow, and we have a really nice team who keeps each other sharp in that way. So it's not about me running after everybody saying, Hey, watch this, watch that. Um, you should do this more, or you should this do this more. Of course, there are always points which I can point out, but this is more something we discuss during a during a month, monthly meeting, actually.
SPEAKER_01And Fitz won uh best new cocktail bar, correct?
SPEAKER_00Yes, correct.
SPEAKER_01At the entree awards, the former venues awards in the Netherlands, which is the Netherlands Hospitality Awards. I mean, tremendous achievement, really. Congratulations. Um was that something you had in mind when you you know built the team and opened the bar? Was there a model like we want to be as good as bar X? Or how how did this come about? Was it just a happy accident?
SPEAKER_00No, I wouldn't say it's a happy accident. The the aim to to win this one was there for me from the start, actually, um, because I've been nominated three times for this award. So one time with Jennifer and Kin, one time with Ultra Moraine, and then the last time was with Fitz.
SPEAKER_03Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_00So it's like, okay, then uh three the third time should be a charm in that way, and uh then I was like just going full full for this and saying, like, okay, we really need to do this, and just looking at all all aspects of what uh what could make a good bar, and also what does the bar bring to the Dutch cocktail scene? And for me, the aim was to bring a little bit more of London to to Amsterdam of London hospitality, London vibe. If you go to a London hotel bar, um some hotel bars they say, yeah, we are a hotel bar, but we don't buy we don't want to be a hotel bar. Yeah, it's it's okay to be a hotel bar, but yeah, just put it on. Yeah, of course, in that in Amsterdam, there's always something, especially with the locals, that they feel the step of going over the um over the hill of going inside of a hotel. I think that that hill is now becoming less and less less. So with that in mind, as to look okay, we we are Fitz bar, so that's that's our that's our name, that's the bar. Uh we are inside of a hotel, a five-star hotel. So we also should give them the five-star service, even if you're another outlet, because you're inside of a five-star hotel in the way in in the end. So with that in mind, I just started looking a lot of times to what they do in London. So went to Con Out, went to Desavoy, went to all the five-star hotel bars, actually, just to check out what are they doing, what can we, what can we do to implement certain aspects which which I saw there, but not losing our own philosophy of having fun behind the bar as well. So this is really a nice mix of what we uh what we did. And yeah, you know, then we then we won the prize with with this kind of idea. And yeah, it's amazing that everything succeeded the way I want. Of course, we are not there yet. Uh, of where we really aiming to. It's like that's that's that's a dream to uh to achieve, but let's see.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, uh obviously the you know, the national awards, things like entree are um relatively more accessible, and certainly if you live in a major city like Amsterdam.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You know, the international awards can be more difficult, and they can become a treadmill. I'm talking about, you know, Tales of the Cocktail Spirited Awards, the various 50 best lists, the 500 best list. Um, somebody probably is working on a 5000 best list. In fact, I think I did see a joke about that. But that requires a huge amount more like real investments, you know, time, time and actual money. So is that something that you've considered, or are you very happy with like where you are?
SPEAKER_00And no, it's something we consider and we also aiming to to um yeah, to be uh attached to the international bar scene as well. And yeah, I know that it's taking a lot of time and investment. Um, but we're really aiming to it because I think or I believe truly in that we can achieve it, even now that we are little little older than a year, but I think we have the team for it, which is stable, and we all have the same goal of being at least somewhere in the top 500. That would be nice for this year, and then the year after, yeah, going higher on that ladder, and then the year after that, who knows, top 50 discovery or anything like that would be an amazing thing. But it's yeah, it's it's what I said, it's a dream, and as you said, it's a lot of a lot of investment, so it also needs to um uh how you say yeah, you need to achieve it, you know you need to gain it as well. It's not it's not coming at you, it's not gonna get no nobody's gonna give you so like a look look look here. Do you hear you have top 500 bar or anything like that? Nobody's gonna give that.
SPEAKER_01Well, like any investments, you have to spend the money before you get the return. Yeah, you don't get the return up front, right? But let's uh let's circle around to another achievement of yours. Uh, you joined the NBC, the Netherlands Bartender Clubs, which is one of the oldest bartender organizations in the world. Um and it's affiliated to the IBA, the International Bartenders Association. For any listeners that don't understand, so the IBA is the global umbrella to which national guilds associate themselves. So the United States Bartender Guild affiliates itself to the IBA, the United Kingdom Bartender Guild affiliates the IBA, the Deutsche Barkeeper Union affiliates the IBA. Um, when did you join the NBC? At what bar were you working? Can you remember?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I worked when I when I joined, I was 19. And on that point, I still worked in a beach club in uh in Lemmer. In it was called Beach Club Lemmer. Uh it's still called Beach Club Lemmer. So that's where where my first bar bar job was. I was just a bartender pouring beers, doing wines, and then suddenly they have uh had cocktails, and then I was like, okay, it's interesting. And then I started to wanting to learn more about it. Um, and then uh one of the trainers we had from uh from Heineken, he was the hospitality trainer, and he said, like, ah yeah, if you want to know more about cocktails, then just apply to uh to the MBC because that's the Dutch uh bartender guild. So if you want to know more about it, be more involved in seminars or anything like that, please uh you're most welcome to contact Richard, Richard Selstra, who was the vice president back then, but he's now or president in the Dutch Guild. And yeah, it's so nice to have been there already since the beginning, and now uh last year going with him to Rome. So for me, the whole circle was complete, like me signing or kind of signing up, sending him a mail like, Hey, I'm Nick, I'm just 19 years old, I want to learn more about it, and then now being on the world stage and getting a gold medal for the Netherlands, yeah, it's something amazing to achieve, also for the whole Dutch bartender scene here, actually.
SPEAKER_01Uh, talk us through it. Your what what um category was your gold medal in?
SPEAKER_00Uh before dinner.
SPEAKER_01Before dinner, yeah. Right? And can you tell us the name and the recipe for the cocktail?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, the the cocktail was Garden of Dreams, right? And everybody needed to work with Nonino Moscato, so that was our sponsor brand. Um, so it's a grappa, which is a hard ingredient to to put in and into a cocktail. It's not hard to to um to show it in your drink, so it always comes comes around. So, what I've did, I put I made actually kind of a negroni on steroids, um which were which was with the grap with the nonino moscato grappa campari, which I rapidly infused with some basil and um um white tea, jasmine pearls, and then I put the um del professore bianco, which is hardly hard really hard to get in the Netherlands, and also in Italy back then. So we came there, there was no del Professore yet, but apparently. They found a way to get it. So we were was I was relieved when I saw the bottle. And then I put a little hint of mezcal to give a little bit of mystery to the drink. And to to celebrate the apertivo moments in Italy, I put it some uh some prosecco, and then it was garnished with a basil leaf, zalotti blossom, and zaloti blossom is actually the top of the basil, which is really flowery, and uh just mean blossom on top, and then a grapefruit zest on top just for the aroma of the drink.
SPEAKER_01And how much what were the what was the proportions of each one? Like how much of each ingredient?
SPEAKER_00Uh 2020 20 and then five of mezcal and then a top of the Poseco.
SPEAKER_01And it was a long drink, like a built drink?
SPEAKER_00No, it was um was in uh in a works class, double-off fashion.
SPEAKER_01Brilliant. So I mean that's obviously a very, you know, a serious drink that would be at home in any uh bar around the world. Uh but very often the kind of IBA drinks you see, especially at the World Championships, are a little bit out of step with the bar drinks you would see in you know a world's 50 best bar of 500, or that you might expect in a in a modern cocktail bar.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Right? Because not every IBA national guild is the same. You tend to like the NBC is really good, the UK BG is really good, the uh Italian Ibez is very good, the Japanese and South Americans are very good. The rest of them can be quite variable. So you see a lot of passion fruit syrup and banana dolphins and uh blue drinks, which are of course excellent.
SPEAKER_00But yeah. Yeah, I've seen them all actually on the stage. Which is which is a which is an amazing experience because as you said, you you you look at to 65 countries you're competing with, um, and everybody has their own style, and this is something you really see that in Europe, um, and I'm coding the UK with it as well, that is more of a modern kind of interpretating of a drink. Okay, the so and if you go to let's say more to Asia, or yeah, it's more of a classic way, and they do different, they they do their things different, and they are really really way better on the garnishes than than the Europeans are because there are some there are some brilliant garnishes in Europe as well, don't get me wrong. But if you look at the um the competitor from Japan from this year, for instance, he was doing a dance behind the garnish garnish table to make to make his garnish in between of the 15 minutes, and then the the garnish was done, and I was looking at it, I was like, wow, this is truly something amazing to make this kind of garnish in this amount of time was it's impeccable. It's yeah, yeah. Everybody was standing on stools and stuff just to watch him doing it was was really good.
SPEAKER_01And was that your first time at the world finals?
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes, yes.
SPEAKER_01So, what what was it like? Because you know, America's a country of 350 million people, but the delegation to the world finals is only like five or six, and you know, the vast majority of American bartenders aren't a member at all, right? It's it's not as strong in the US as it could be. So you describe the experience to me, from when you departed to you know winning and coming home.
SPEAKER_00So when when I when I went to Rome, you mean?
SPEAKER_01Or when you went to Rome, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so when I went to Rome, it was the day after the the entree award. We won't so my voice was completely gone on the on the Tuesday. We went to and you were hungover. No, I was not I was not hangover, actually, was still excited and was was really wanting to to go to Rome. It was really exciting to to go there. So was really looking forward, and then we came there. Uh we had a dinner first, then we had the briefing of uh of the first competition day, and then we had the possibility to go to the pub on the Wednesday morning at six o'clock in the morning, and at first it was like okay, let's go, but then the dinner and the briefing took until what was it, like like one, one o'clock in the night. So from that point, it was like, okay, I can still go there, but then I need to to have a little little little nap in between if I still need to go on stage. But then they said, like, no, you need to be there at 12 o'clock in the morning. So it's like, okay, skip the pop. I'm not going there, going there, just taking the rest because I needed it, especially after this Monday night. So it was like, okay, just take the rest, chill, relax, um, get your story in, get get the story, get everything into your system. So when you are there on the stage, you can perform. And that's actually what I did, just to relax, put myself at ease, and then the then then we did, then I went there. You come there, then we got a little delayed because there were still people at the pop who needed to judge as well the first rounds. So we needed to wait a little bit, which we which was okay. Um, but then we started, and then you have um, yeah, then I was I was number three, yeah. That was the third to to do my presentation. And you come there, it's like okay, sit down, and then after that, they say, Okay, now you can go to your garnish, to your garnish table, put the garnish together, and yeah, at first at first they are just really looking at okay, can you make a good drink? This is something, this is like the first step they look at, and everything else they don't really care. It just can you make a good drink, and how is your technique? So then the garnish, you go to the garnish table. Um, so my garnish was quite simple and compared to the one to Japan, was a basil leaf, and then in the basil leaf was the zaloti blossom with the with the blossom of the of the jasmine. So there was a pretty simple garnish to make, so it's pretty was done pretty fast. But then I also had a rapid infusion, which I made on the spot because you cannot bring any any infusions to the to the um not prepared infusions to the competition out of your own home country because they they don't know what's inside, so they all that everything is really stricted there. So they really want to know, okay, if you use the campari, is it campari or is it something else? That's fair. So they really want to know. Yeah, it's really fair, and it also makes it make it makes everything really uh honest as well. So nothing nobody can really cheat in that competition. Um, so that's that's what I did, and then I think I was done in 10 minutes, and you have 15 minutes, so I still had five minutes to to check what the other competitor was doing on the stage. So that was kind of a chill moment, and then I went to the stage, did the presentation. Um it was really nice to to meet the judges there. Both both were speaking Spanish, and as I'm uh I have some Spanish roots, as I said, I was able to speak Spanish with them fluently, so then you build a connection, which is which is always good. Don't forget your judges. It's one of the one of the first points I learned uh when you're doing a competition. If you forget about your judges, they will care about they will also care less about you because you don't care about them. So it's like instant karma, I would say. And from there, we did the inspiration. So you get one minute for your um for your for your presentation. You do your presentation, and then you start to build your drink.
SPEAKER_01So, what's the presentation exactly? What what does that mean?
SPEAKER_00So, the presentation you explain who you are, which country you represent, um, what kind of drink you have made, and what the inspiration of the drink is it it is. And yeah, it's always nice to always complete compliment the the country who is hosting, but also the IBA, of course, that they're hosting the competition, that you are there, and then you you need to explain your drink, of course, what the inspiration is. So for me, the garden of dreams was inspired by an Italian garden on next to an Apertivo. Um yeah, it was was on a hill. So you you go with the hill, you go down, and then you all find different ingredients. So you find your basil, you found your oranges, which is in the campari, you found the grapes, which is used in the grappa and in the vermouth, and then in the end, I found the fireplace with my friends where we had the mystery of the Montelobos coming through, and then on top of that, to celebrate the beautiful day with we topped the proseco. So that was kind of the inspiration I had on this on this drink, and yeah. Um yeah, that's it. Then I won. I won this category.
SPEAKER_01And everybody was wearing their uh their blazers and their ties and things like that.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes. I was wearing my white suit, and uh, yeah, I think the white suit is something really common in Italy, or a lot of Italian bartenders actually wearing white suits. So it was something I was like, okay. I I I normally work in a white suit, I also have a blue suit, but I thought I found this really more was okay. Just get into the vibe and yeah, just just go with the flow, as we we've said, and from that part, um you you've been calling up to stage, so you have the then the top three announcements per category. So in every category there are competing 14 to 15 countries, and from there, no, I'm not saying that wrong, I think from 12 to 14 countries are competing in every in every category. And then they they sell okay, this is top three, and the top three goes along to the top 15, and then in the top 15 uh it's your second day, so then you get another briefing after the um after the day, so when everybody's done, you get a second briefing of how the second day is gonna look, and then they explain you okay, be here. Um at uh there's no no time to party, you cannot drink anything, because tomorrow morning the first thing you will have is a sensory test, and that's about what can you what can you truly taste. So, can you taste bitterness? Can you taste sour? Can you taste sweetness? Can you taste umami? Um, can you taste saltiness? Yes. Um, and this is this is all something which they put on um in in like little watershots, and I think the bitterness or the sweetness of it, it's like 0.01%. So it's really, really sensitive. And yeah, it's in the if they if you would have been drinking coffee in the morning, I give you a really, really hard chance to to figure out what it was, what what is what. I think on that point I got like one or two wrong, but I think it was still still it was doable in the end, but you only have like one shot, nothing else, so you cannot go back. It's like one shot and you go go through it. Then after that, you um you have your your palate, so then it says um, I don't know, you have the nosing stifts, and then you nose, say okay, this is fish, this is this, this is that. That was pretty good. Then they give you little papers which you put on your tongue, and then you need to say, like, this is this is sour, this is bitter, this is sweet, or this is salt, and then after that, you get the the blind tasting of different spirits.
SPEAKER_01Does all this count towards your score?
SPEAKER_00Yes, everything, everything counts into the score, and then you after that, you also have the knowledge test. So then they talk you, then you they want to know, okay, what what do you know actually about the IBA? What do you know about the cocktails? What know what do you know about the cocktail scenes? What do you know about the classics? So what if you go through the IBA book, which is about 380 pages or something, there are like a lot of things which you which you read through. It's it's really extensive, but sometimes you always find something you you didn't know. So also with kind of tea service, is are there different kinds of types of coffee? It's it's like all described in this book, so it's really extensive. Um, and this was all in the morning, and then in the afternoon we had the speed challenges, and now I know in the morning I scored pretty good. So I think in the morning I was still in the top three, and then when the speed challenge came, where you don't nobody is gonna tell you what kind of uh cocktail you need to make, and then they say, like, yeah, the only thing I'm gonna tell you is that you're gonna make IBA cocktails. So the IBA cocktails are specific kind of uh ingredients, specific kind of amounts as well. So it's really something you need to go into your mind saying, okay, normally I do this, but now because you need to do the IBA recipe, you need to change it in your head a little bit to say, like, okay, this is the IBA recipe, so I need to change it because I have different.
SPEAKER_01Did you practice the speed round?
SPEAKER_00No, I didn't. No, no, so this is this is where I failed. Yeah, it's um it's something I know now for next year. Luckily, luckily, I know I can I I'm I have the ability to to go there next year to Madeira, and then then I come prepared for this for the speed round. But I did I didn't know about any of this. Um what I knew what kind of things would happen in this in the second round in the semifinals, but I didn't know how it looked like or anything. And I was just being humble and said, like, okay, if I go if I go through top 15, maybe winning the category, I would be happy.
SPEAKER_01So well, it's a pattern. Like, if you look at DiAgio world class, which is you know just about the biggest contest out there, um, there's a pattern of people winning the global championships who had been to the finals before.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Because very often, you know, well, obviously, always the national finals are organized by a completely different organization to the global finals. And even though they have like a playbook, uh, you're only competing against other people from your country. Yeah, you're not competing against the best in the world, so it can usually be a very big shock when you uh when you get to the globals and you're like, well, I'm I'm not at home anymore, you know?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, true. It is, it is. Um, and that's also the experience which I gained a lot of because um it's also for myself. I as I said, I'm I'm pretty humble for myself, and then you come there and then you're like, oh wow, maybe maybe there's a big possibility that I can go through. But then you also start to realize, ah, but then I needed to work harder up in front, so I needed to prepare myself. So it was a kind of a hard lesson for me when I was there in Rome to not be fully prepared. So I was just studying the whole night for the book, for everything, just to get everything in my system. Um, if I could have done that in advance, it would have given me more more kind of a relaxed moment as well. And to yeah, to to maybe make it to the to the super final in the end, which is only the top three of the world, then on that point. And if you compare it to world class and to the IBA, I think it's uh it's it's all world stages, uh, where in the world class it's more about I I think it's as world class is more about innovation. Um, really really telling telling a story, storytelling is one big part of world class. Um, of course, you need to bring out banging drinks, uh, wherein where in the IBA it's all most of it is actually all about the drinks. It's like 80% of your score is the drink. Everything around that is um it's just extra. And that's this is something you they define because in the super final, for instance, it's just the drink which is giving you a low score, but if it's not done in the right time, then you get a lot of minus points again because it's also about your technique as well, which is in world class about the same thing. Um, yeah, where you can bring your ingredients in world class from your home country, where in the IBA it's nice to have already, yeah, it's like all sponsored products, and for your world class, it's all the agile products in the end. So there are a lot of there are a lot of differences but also similarities in one point.
SPEAKER_01It's kind of a shame that we've had you know bartender contests for over 150 years, in fact, but no contest-winning cocktail has ever really become popular. There was even uh for a long time the Picardi Legacy Contest, which tried to create popular cocktails and you know didn't didn't really succeed. If there's any journalists listening here, there's a book to be written, you know, all the contest-winning cocktails of the last 10 or 15 years, because I'm sure they're amazing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, I believe so too. And that that's that's actually the thing. The sp I think Bugardi Legacy actually is it's a shame that's not not around here anymore, or maybe it's coming back, who knows? But they they were really good in hyping the drink in really like for instance, uh, fellow um Dutch guy, Erik van Beek, who's from Hansburg from Handshake, with his carinho, which is a really popular drink inside of the Netherlands as well. Uh, still sometimes people they well, not really often, but do you have some people like ah, do you know the carinho? So yeah, but it's still it's still around, and it's actually fun to to have a drink which is hyped up in a way, and people they like it, and yeah, they win. You you won it with uh with a reason, I think, right?
SPEAKER_01Definitely, right? Absolutely. So tell me, is there what's like the best-selling cocktail that fits from the menu?
SPEAKER_00It is the essence number five.
SPEAKER_01Really? What's run us through that cocktail?
SPEAKER_00Uh, there is uh gin, there is uh barbero, which is an amaro based on rhubarb, so it gives a little bit of the smoky but also vegetable note. Then there's a little bit of rose, like a really small hint. Beach, jasmine, vanilla, and champagne acid.
SPEAKER_01Wow. Is it a long drink?
SPEAKER_00Yes, it's a long drink. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01That's for that to be the best seller, uh, is unusual. And is it like a very visually stunning drink?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's it's it has nice glassware. Um, other than that, the garnish is um is a lemongrass and a flower. Pretty simple. Um, but the lemongrass is related to fetiver, which is then used in the in the perfume industry quite often. So that's why we said okay, lemongrass is fresh, has this lemony kind of aroma, so it's nice to put it and the and the flower is there to to decorate. And then it comes in this beautiful Italy's um eyeball with um with a clear ice cube. It's yeah, and it's yellow, it's pretty, it's it's it's delicious, it's it works.
SPEAKER_01And what would uh what do cocktails like that normally cost in uh fits?
SPEAKER_00This one is 19 euros.
SPEAKER_01And is that comparable to cocktail prices in other you know, fancy hotels like Freddy's Bar in the Hotel de la Rup or uh you know any of the other Yeah, I would say so.
SPEAKER_00I think if you look at the the Taylor, for instance, they also charge from 18 euros and up. And uh the tailor is from uh Kasnapolski on the down square. Uh bar 27 does about the same prices as well on cocktails. So I think it's really comparable to it. We are on the high on the high on the high price point, and we know, uh, but we also know uh what we do, what we what kind of ingredients we put in, what kind of effort we put into drink. So this is also considered into the price, of course.
SPEAKER_01No, I think it's reasonable if you compare to London and New York, you know, the the cocktail capitals. It's almost exactly like a normal cocktail now in a nice bar in New York, a Dead Rabbit, an overstory, a Manhattan, Ophelia is going to be about $22. But the difference is that's before a 9% tax, and you have to leave a 20% tip. That's not an option. So the $22 cocktail is actually $30 pretty much.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, that's true. Yeah, it's about $26. Yeah, $26 in $100.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so that's uh that's definitely prompted some some questions from some people, but you know, this is a luxury product. So in you know, you've had the stratospheric rise. I'm sure there's a lot of media attention for yourself and your colleagues at FITS right now. So what are like, have you got any short-term plans for the bar for like the next six months, things you'd like to improve or adapt or change the list or something like that?
SPEAKER_00Um for now. For now, we have we have some projects going on. So we we are we are getting invited more and more to do some guest shifts and also to host more guest shifts at the bar. So that's something where we are looking at also, as we told about getting more into the international market. It's something you need to do to invest more in in terms of guest shifts. So this is something we're gonna do, for instance, um uh to Copenhagen in February. Uh, we don't know the schedule yet, but it's gonna be with naked mold, as we want the naked bar swap as well last year. Now we're gonna swap some bars with uh with uh the bar. Yeah, we're just gonna take over a couple of bars probably in Copenhagen. Um and then the guys from Zest from Korea, they are coming over to our place to do uh to do a shift with us, probably. And yeah, then during that time there's also a competition of the new naked bar shop is coming going on. So yeah, let's see. I'm really really curious of how this goes and what we what we can do there. And that's gonna be in February, March, so that those months, then yeah, in April, in May, we don't know yet. Actually, we have some talks going on, but nothing is certain yet.
SPEAKER_01Is this something that you're going to plan? Like, okay, we're gonna send our staff on so many guest shifts and we're gonna receive so many guest shifts because there are some people who plan this relentlessly, like they want to do guest shifts in the very big prestigious bars and then invite those people to you know Amsterdam or wherever to be guests in their bars, or are you kind of letting the opportunities just come in and picking the ones that you think make sense?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, for now it's more about picking the opportunities, but it's it's changing in planning more and more and more. Of course, you because as I said, yeah, we just we just opened, so it's more about doing things in baby steps instead of going all over and beyond. So I always want to measure if something is possible before doing it, and that's why for now it's more about looking about the possibilities, what we can do, and then from that point, more planning and planning involving in that matter.
SPEAKER_01Um, looking outside uh fits for a moment, there's been huge you know development and innovation in the Dutch bar scene, even really in the last five, six years, because of Brexit, again, because of COVID, again because Amsterdam finally got the luxury hotels that it lacked, which means it's getting more and more international conventions. That was always a sticking point for Amsterdam. Who's doing really cool stuff, bar and cocktail-wise, in the Netherlands that interests you?
SPEAKER_00Um, I think, yeah, we we do, of course. That's one. Um also what I really like is Vesper bar, is like one of the main bars I always like to go. Really good guys behind the bar. They know what they're doing, they know the ingredients. Then uh new bar which is recently opened, is Groovy Fluids Lab.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, where is that?
SPEAKER_00It's in the um it's in yeah, it's in the center, but more on the west part. So not not inside of the center, but more on the west west side. I haven't been there yet, but it's something I really want to go really soon. Um then there wasn't another one which I truly like.
SPEAKER_01Because I'm I'm very impressed by what Ben's built with Duke of Tokyo, and they now have three branches of this insanely good Japanese karaoke bar, but just calling it Japanese karaoke bar doesn't really describe it. You have to experience Duke of Tokyo.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes. I've been in the one in Amsterdam, and that's really cool, good, cool, good vibe. Um, but now they recently opened one in Rotterdam, which is their flagship Duke of Tokyo. Oh, is this? Yeah, this is uh what what I've heard is like an amazing size of Duke. Oh wow, yeah. I'm just I'm just really down to when whenever I go to Rotterdam, I really need to go that that way and to check out what they're what they did, what they've did there. I also know uh Julian, uh who recently worked at uh door 74, started to work there in Rotterdam with them in uh juke of Tokyo. So yeah, it's some some place I really want to visit when I'm there. Uh really curious of yeah, what what what they've made. I only heard good stories.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I suspect. Well, I know the Amsterdam one, I haven't been to the one in Utrecht, but I suspect it will work really well in Rotterdam. Um, I know Rotterdam really well, the city of sort of shunnies and anises, as they call it. Uh it's it's a very Rotterdam in joke, but I think the the concept of a luxury karaoke room and singing along just fits them in in Rotterdam absolutely 100%.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think if you look at the um if you want to book a room or anything there, because you have different rooms where you can book to sitting privately, um yeah, you see that it's it's almost full every day. So that's something which really goes along. It's it's an amazing thing. Um, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Just let's let's switch an amazing concept from a foreign concept to uh a domestic one. Um when I opened Door74 in 2008, I distinctly remember that year looking at the category sales for each type of liquor in Holland. And the very bottom in 2007 or 2008, the least selling type of liquor in Holland was gin. It actually sold less than advocat. And for foreign listeners, the advocat you've had abroad isn't even the advocat they have in Holland. In Holland, they have a type called like black chicken, which is solid, and you eat it with a spoon, and that sold more than gin in 2008.
SPEAKER_00Even my grandmother used to put some uh whipped cream on top of it. Yeah. It's more like a pudding.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's it's it's such for old people. In fact, I'll tell you a story, it's kind of sad. I used to do a huge amount of work, training, and teaching for the balls company, and they have some advocate brands, including Black Chicken, Zwarta Kip. And you know, you never see promotions or anything with Zwarta Kip, but they gave responsibility to a young brand manager, and she came up with a competition, believe it or not, for this advocate. And it was a competition between nursing homes, retirement homes. They all had to make a video of them. This really happened, of them doing the chicken song. Right? And the the nursing home that did the best one, their prize was they would get a day of like fun old people activities. There'd be like a schlagger and an organ and a medicine and all this kind of thing. And the reason you probably never heard about it was there was a retirement home that did a really nice video, and all the old people dressed up with silly hats. But by the time they had chosen the winner and that they would normally be showing the video, unfortunately, several several of the people had died. So they were never able to use the video and really talk about the thing. But getting back to the key thing, you're you're laughing, of course, when I say that advocat outsold gin because gin is now absolutely through the roof in the Middle East. Uh, in a way, honestly, it's per person, it's selling more than in America, it's on a level with Spain and uh and England, and a lot of that I think has come. Well, I correct me if I'm wrong. Tell me if I'm wrong, actually, Nick. A lot of that is uh Dutch gins.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's true, it's true. We uh yeah, we have a lot of Dutch gins, and it's not not weird to say that gin became uh from Geneva, right? So Geneva is like the source uh we always believe for where gin gin is becoming from. Um so I think if you when we explain this to the Dutch people, they also find something like this show like uh Dutch Pride, and they were like, ah, okay, we drink something which is attached to us, and this is again with uh with attaching to the guests on under getting them, getting the guests to drink something which they feel attached to. Um, but yeah, now it's I need to say it's it's running back a little bit the gin now in the Netherlands, um, but still it's it's it's it's huge, it's still still a big part, but it's running a little bit back, which is nice because it also makes people more yeah, more of an experienced drinker, they want to try more things, but yeah, it's it's still selling a lot, and especially Dutch gins. Also, when you have uh when when we have some uh some guests from from the states, for instance, they want to try something which is local, so then it's always okay, here you go. Here we have something which is from the Netherlands, so it can be can be Bobby's, can be yeah, what can be Damrak, can be four furdings, which is a really nice cedar wood infused gin. Yes, it is. So, yeah, we have different gins, of course, in the Netherlands.
SPEAKER_01So, generally, if somebody uh orders gin and fits, whether you know a gin and tonic or a martini, so they're not ordering from the cocktail menu. Uh, overall, what are like the popular ones that they order? Is it the ones you mentioned? Are there some others in the lineup?
SPEAKER_00I would say for us, we sell, especially compared to the bars I worked before, and I'm really happy about it. We sell a lot of dry martinis. Oh, great. Uh, so I'm really happy with that. Um, old fashioned is always a good is always a good classic, which we sell a lot. Negronis.
SPEAKER_01But if people order, um if they order a brand of gin, right, and they want that in their cocktail, they want that in their martini or negroni or whatever, what most commonly are those brands?
SPEAKER_00I would say tenkurae, tenkurae number 10 definitely is one of them. Um Gin Mari as well is named a couple of times. Bobbies. Yeah, that's that's the and yeah, we we have on on house poor we have Roku, Roku Gin. Um, but fancy, yeah, really fancy. But the the the if if they really specifically ask for another gin, then it would be Tankare, Bobby's, or or Jin Mari.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean the the irony of the gin geneva link is that um 98% of the Geneva that's sold in Holland is a sort of vodka-like young Geneva, right? And people are accustomed to drinking that maybe when they're young because it's very cheap, it's even cheaper than vodka, which doesn't make a lot of sense. And they then they you know, a lot of Dutch people can live their whole lives and never really have a proper old Geneva uh or a coravine, and definitely not a hundred percent malt wine Geneva. That's very, very weird. So that's very weird. Although Geneva 100% malt wine is complete madness, but we've been very lucky in that I thought, you know, of the two Geneva's, if I sold five bottles, one would be 100% malt wine, and four would be, you know, the the stuff that's more recognizable, the green bottle, which is technically a corn vine, actually. And it's actually more like um two bottles of uh the 100% malt wine, or sometimes even three out of every five. And that's really cool because the category of 100% malt wine is almost extinct, and I feel it's really important to keep it alive. But is that like when people order Geneva cocktail or ask about Geneva in fits, how do you deal with it? Like, particularly with regards to Dutch people, because they kind of come with a bit of baggage that the rest of the world might not have.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, true. Um, because we always have this uh stigma that we that we look at Geneva and we see our grandfather or grandmother drinking it. Um, and then we're like, ah, this is old. We don't want this, we don't want to be that old as our grandfathers or grandmothers. So this is something I especially the younger generation and also the generation of myself, um they all think about this in a way. Um, but it's it's it's actually a pity because it's so it's such a beautiful product, it has so many different layers, especially the the old genever, which is the old recipe. Uh, it's not specifically aged, but it's an old recipe of making genever. And the young genever is the young recipe, so it's the newest kind of recipe. But that one is tasting a little bit more like like vodka or like gin in a way. Um, but I'm I'm a big fan of old genever's um because it has a little bit of this maltiness, has the juniper juniper aspect, um, especially the the malt wines. I truly love a nice malt wine, uh, which are so nice to work with to bring different kinds of flavors into uh or layers actually inside of the cocktail. Even if you just use five five milliliters or anything, it just brings that kind of thing that they're like, what is this? What is this thing? What I feel in the background, what is it? And then you start to explain, and then you start to talk about the malt, and then they're like, Ah, okay, now I understand that it's the malt wine that I taste back into the drink. And for Geneva, yeah, Geneva, you can use just in different drinks. Okay, it's so versatile. You can use it as a whiskey, you can make an old like uh like uh old Geneva old-fashioned if you have a nice aged one. If you say, like, okay, let's say 10-year-old Geneva is perfect for an old-fashioned. There are even additions with which are which are aged on Petrohimenez casks, which are truly out of the roof if you compare that with the flavor of uh of a 10-year-old whiskey.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think the success of little Geneva brands abroad, like Old Duff, you know, definitely influences bartenders in the Netherlands. Because it's nice to go to the Connaught in London and see it on the cocktail menu, you know, or uh a bar like Patent Pending or Overstory in New York or, you know, whatever, whatever. Because a lot of the time countries don't like their own spirits. Like cognac actually doesn't sell very much in France. Weirdly enough, they drink more Scotch whiskey, and Scotch whiskey doesn't sell as well as you think in Scotland. The number one spirit there is actually vodka. So really, yeah, there's always uh a thing almost about being famous abroad. It infl it influences then the people at home. So and I'll I I mean I remember going to America before I moved to Holland, and young people were just not drinking bourbon whiskey, they were not drinking it at all, and they definitely weren't drinking rye whiskey, but now the distilleries literally cannot keep up, and you know, bourbon is now if you were drinking bourbon five years ago and you still want to be cool now, now you're drinking rye whiskey in America, as you know, a cool young person.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, indeed. I think you we see this in the Netherlands as well now that more um from the younger generation as well as mine, they are drinking more whiskey. So it's it's really picking up just whiskey in general, scotch, Irish, not so much, actually. But um, Japanese whiskies, like the demand of Japanese whiskey is is there. Um scotch whiskeys are drinking, they're drinking quite quite a bit. Um especially the ones from the states, so the rye, the sour meshes, the bourbons, everything is yeah, there's even the like a malt, a single malt as well from from from the states. They're really really much more interested in what what the states are making, and I think especially the rice, um, they are great. They're great to work with in 50-50 kind of drinks. So if you have a Manhattan, use rye and bourbon to make that make that mesh and make it palette, make it really nice layered in Manhattan.
SPEAKER_01Are young people in the Netherlands drinking scotch?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, more and more. If I even in my own family, not my not my little brother, but the little brother of my my girlfriend, he started to drink whiskey uh scotch when he was like let's say 17.
SPEAKER_01Wow.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I was I was I'm six years older than him, so he's now 20. No, I'm five, yeah, six years older. So he's now 23. So when I started my career, I think I was 23 as well. So when he started to drink scotch, I looked at it and I was like, You drink scotch? He's like, Yeah, I like this. I'm like, wow, I didn't because you I don't I don't expect anybody from 17 to drink scotch, actually, especially not in the Netherlands.
SPEAKER_01How is he drinking it? Is he having a cocktail? Is it straight up with an ice cube?
SPEAKER_00What like straight up, straight up, no ice? Yeah, yeah. He has a really good friend, and he um he just drinks it with it. Just beautiful, just tries, tries different whiskies, and now now he's lucky that that sometimes I bring a nice bottle of whiskey, and it's like, okay, what do you think about this? And then we drink whiskey together. So nice.
SPEAKER_01Well, it's it's more reasonably priced there than in America, and you know, we get more reasonably priced bourbon and rye here, like just to make you sick. You can buy uh there's a liquor store downstairs from my apartment, and you can buy 1.75 liters, so almost two liters, of Evan Williams bourbon whiskey, eight years old, bottled in bond for 47 dollars.
SPEAKER_00Okay, one second, I will look up what it cost here.
SPEAKER_01I don't think you can even buy 1.75 liters there, but uh it's probably gonna cost more.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, if I yeah, it's about 60 euros here.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, which would be let's say almost 70 US dollars. And that's probably for 700 ml.
SPEAKER_00No, it's uh the if I if I if I pull it to two liters, for instance, then it's about $70, I would say.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, okay. Well that's you know, that's a significant hike upwards, but then again, the single malts are cheaper in the Netherlands, so yeah, that or the rather we now have to say the Scottish single malts because American single malts are now a legal category, and there's at least a dozen of them. Most of them have not been exported yet. You might have seen some like uh Stranahans or Lantern or something like that. Uh the Westward we had Westward's one of the big players, and you know they're they're all very, very good, actually. I haven't seen one that I wouldn't uh yeah.
SPEAKER_00I really like the development of that, actually. It's really nice. I think the the Westworld Pinot Noir barrel is is really nice.
SPEAKER_01Brilliant. Well, uh this has been fantastic, Nick. Thank you very much for all your time. I'm sure that you're being, as you said, inundated with all these requests for guest shifts, this, that, and the other thing. So tell us, where can we find you online and uh fitz on all the various social networks and whatnot?
SPEAKER_00So you can find me on Instagram. Uh it's at Nick.fr, fee from Victor R Rudolf. And if you want to find our bar, it's Fitz's bar Amsterdam on Instagram as well. We don't have any TikTok, I think. No, we don't have any TikTok.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, if if you have TikTok, it means your bar team is too young.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, we don't do TikTok. It's also not our uh our goal to to have it, and it's I think most of our guests which we aim to don't well maybe some of them have it, but it's not uh not in our line to uh to attract them.
SPEAKER_01And does the hotel have an Instagram as well?
SPEAKER_00Yes, it's pillows and then I just to make sure that I say the right one because we have a different pillows magits at the park, it's called that's a long tag, yeah.
SPEAKER_01But it's definitely a place that uh people should stay. Uh it's definitely a place I'm gonna visit when I come to Amsterdam. If you're on the company credit card, definitely stay at Pillows and go downstairs. Yeah, Nick will convert uh all your bar bills that says cocktails into saying, you know, soft drinks and uh coffee and murderers. So your boss will be like, You spent 180 euros on tea? It's like, yeah, well, you know, it was really good tea. And Nick, mate, congratulations. I hope you get to go back to the IBA championships next year and and kick some more ass now that you know how it is, and you know, practice anything that you might need to practice. You've been representing Holland amazingly, and you know, Madeira is probably an amazing place to go to. They call it the Maldives of Europe. You know, it's only four hours away and they have a rainforest.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's true. I'm really looking forward for it, and I'm really gonna do my best to to kick the kick all the asses there. So yeah, let's see. Let's see what next year or what this year actually gonna bring us. And yeah, just just really looking into the future and just see, just go with the flow and see how it goes.
SPEAKER_01Top work, Nick. Thanks, mate.
SPEAKER_00Cheers, thank you so much, Philip.